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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>Meeting 2020-05-21 · wg-governance · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/index.html">wg-governance</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html">Meeting 2020-05-21</a></h3>

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<a name="198343169"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198343169" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198343169">(May 21 2020 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thread for today's meeting.</p>



<a name="198347274"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347274" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347274">(May 21 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hello everyone,</p>
<p>It's time for the <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="2317">@WG-governance</span> meeting! React/Reply with <span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span> to indicate your attendance.</p>



<a name="198347347"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347347" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347347">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I noticed today that project group RFC was not yet merged</p>



<a name="198347364"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347364" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347364">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will merge it now...</p>



<a name="198347393"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347393" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347393">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me !@#! hates merging RFCs</p>



<a name="198347401"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347401" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347401">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>we should write some tooling for this :)</p>



<a name="198347428"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347428" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347428">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>s/we/someone else/ :P</p>



<a name="198347445"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347445" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347445">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't believe we have any agenda set today, though I'll admit I haven't been the best at keeping one since covid.</p>



<a name="198347465"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347465" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347465">(May 21 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Heh, I have a few things to bring up</p>



<a name="198347468"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347468" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347468">(May 21 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>we do, one sec</p>



<a name="198347493"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347493" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347493">(May 21 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>Aha, I can add the things Niko has to the agenda doc then</p>



<a name="198347523"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347523" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347523">(May 21 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe they're already there</p>



<a name="198347537"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347537" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347537">(May 21 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://hackmd.io/ATj1rZJaRimaIfIWfAOYfQ?edit">https://hackmd.io/ATj1rZJaRimaIfIWfAOYfQ?edit</a></p>



<a name="198347582"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347582" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347582">(May 21 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>Pasting here</p>
<ul>
<li>Continue fleshing out definition of WG</li>
<li>Proposed:<br>
-- Domain WG retrospective<br>
-- Discussion of visibility of resources <br>
-- Effective discussion of contested RFCs</li>
</ul>



<a name="198347606"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347606" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347606">(May 21 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>I updated it back when I did the minutes and the blog post  (and found the other blog post I had committed but not PRed)</p>



<a name="198347670"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347670" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347670">(May 21 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>If what you had was not there, It can be added to the agenda and the other things deferred of course</p>



<a name="198347676"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347676" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347676">(May 21 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>gotta log into Hackmd</p>



<a name="198347786"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347786" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347786">(May 21 2020 at 17:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>mostly it's there, but there are a few minor notes</p>



<a name="198347799"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347799" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347799">(May 21 2020 at 17:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>more "announcements"</p>



<a name="198347832"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347832" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347832">(May 21 2020 at 17:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>First off, I wanted to mention that once I merge <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/2856">rfc#2856</a> we should move that content to forge</p>



<a name="198347885"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347885" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347885">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>that is, the definition of a project group, and notes on how they operate</p>



<a name="198347899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347899">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>so we can link to it :)</p>



<a name="198347920"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347920" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347920">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>cool</p>



<a name="198347967"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347967" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347967">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ok, I'm on vacation from today until the 2nd, so I can do that (:</p>



<a name="198347970"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347970" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347970">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can take that.</p>



<a name="198347983"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198347983" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198347983">(May 21 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="249394">@Val Grimm</span> All yours</p>



<a name="198348050"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348050" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348050">(May 21 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>but secondly, and perhaps more importantly, we had a lang team "design meeting" last week about our procedures and proposals. I'll be posting a transcript + recording soon, but in the meantime I've started a <a href="https://hackmd.io/StXzJPw7SriuM4COL_YfEw">draft of the RFC</a>.</p>



<a name="198348097"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348097" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348097">(May 21 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>The recording is already up no? Or was this another meeting?</p>



<a name="198348108"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348108" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348108">(May 21 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh, maybe I already posted it</p>



<a name="198348114"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348114" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348114">(May 21 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>but not the transcript</p>



<a name="198348124"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348124" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348124">(May 21 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was just watching the proposal meeting today. <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="198348176"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348176" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348176">(May 21 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>someone is still working on a tool to convert from a VTT file to something readable</p>



<a name="198348191"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348191" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348191">(May 21 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, more readable than the raw format, anyway</p>



<a name="198348254"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348254" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348254">(May 21 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>comments on the draft above are probably best placed in <a class="stream-topic" data-stream-id="213817" href="/#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/Design.20meeting.3A.20procedures">#t-lang &gt; Design meeting: procedures</a></p>



<a name="198348341"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348341" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348341">(May 21 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, that's all</p>



<a name="198348426"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348426" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348426">(May 21 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>A question I had listening to to the meeting, is this different than the compiler's major change process, and if so how?</p>



<a name="198348432"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348432" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348432">(May 21 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>re: domain working groups, I think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="249394">@Val Grimm</span> and I drafted some communication, though I at least didn't send or post anything</p>



<a name="198348470"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348470" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348470">(May 21 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198348426">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>A question I had listening to to the meeting, is this different than the compiler's major change process, and if so how?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>they're similar and in fact I think could be "coallesced"</p>



<a name="198348513"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348513" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348513">(May 21 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I was going to bring that up. I just sent it. <em>facepalm</em> I waited too long for more comments and then hit a time problem from getting ready for vacation/wedding, so that's on me. I'll do better in general with this stuff now that I'm not overloaded with a few more work things than made sense.  )</p>



<a name="198348531"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348531" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348531">(May 21 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>there are some specifics that are different in the t-lang variant, and I think I'd probably change the compiler team variant to match</p>



<a name="198348628"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348628" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348628">(May 21 2020 at 17:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>but the main difference is that the compiler almost always ends in "we make PRs" whereas the lang-team almost always ends in "we make a group and write RFCs"</p>



<a name="198348654"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348654" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348654">(May 21 2020 at 17:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>still, I think they have the same basic shape</p>



<a name="198348719"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348719" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348719">(May 21 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am very curious if we can consolidate this concept into something that works across teams</p>



<a name="198348786"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348786" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348786">(May 21 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>since e.g. the libs team currently doesn't really use RFCs, but maybe something like this for "API additions" would be sufficiently lightweight (similar to how compiler team MCPs)</p>



<a name="198348855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348855">(May 21 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well, there's discussion and then an output seems to be the common element?</p>



<a name="198348897"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348897" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348897">(May 21 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>So what if the big picture model would be discussion and an output with examples of relevant outputs as given here?</p>



<a name="198348951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198348951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198348951">(May 21 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah that's what I'd like, from observing I really like the high level of "the team's repo contains the proposals, and goals of the team".</p>



<a name="198349032"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349032" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349032">(May 21 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>the big changes from today I think are:</p>
<ul>
<li>you don't have to have everything figured out, you start more from motivation+problem (at least for lang)</li>
<li>we only one require one person on team to say "yes!" vs everyone signs off</li>
<li>we also do some "resourcing" -- i.e., we track who in team is working on what and you shouldn't be doing too many things at once</li>
</ul>



<a name="198349040"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349040" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349040">(May 21 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>that last part isn't explicitly in the compiler team's process, but it's supposed to be</p>



<a name="198349074"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349074" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349074">(May 21 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>the other thing the lang team added is</p>
<ul>
<li>after some amount of time, we automatically merge the proposal into a "Draft proposals", so things are kept tidy</li>
</ul>



<a name="198349141"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349141" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349141">(May 21 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and we have it for reference later)</p>



<a name="198349220"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349220" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349220">(May 21 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>In compiler and libs does one person need to say yes? I had the sense it was maybe more people? Is that codified?</p>



<a name="198349250"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349250" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349250">(May 21 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I did spend some time on the motivations, in particular I think separating out an RFC that is "likely to go forward" from "Early stage discussion on motivation and design space" is important</p>



<a name="198349289"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349289" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349289">(May 21 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="249394">Val Grimm</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198349220">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>In compiler and libs does one person need to say yes? I had the sense it was maybe more people? Is that codified?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>so in all these cases, when the one person says "yes", it's not really a final decision</p>



<a name="198349305"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349305" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349305">(May 21 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>they're kind of saying "I will help", more than yes</p>



<a name="198349388"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349388" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349388">(May 21 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>so e.g. in lang team, let's say you find a liaison, they help you to craft an RFC, the RFC must still be accepted</p>



<a name="198349421"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349421" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349421">(May 21 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>similarly in compiler team, if you make a PR, the PR must still be reviewed (and if it makes user visible changes, it requires an rfcbot fcp)</p>



<a name="198349513"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349513" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349513">(May 21 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>though I think for compiler team it's really less important, these sorts of votes tend to be .. rare-ish</p>



<a name="198349638"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349638" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349638">(May 21 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me didn't mean to derail the meeting :)</p>



<a name="198349769"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349769" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349769">(May 21 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well I was just about to ask, we can continue discussing this and maybe what a team agnostic proposal looks like or we could move to another topic?</p>



<a name="198349775"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349775" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349775">(May 21 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess -- re: domain WG follow-up -- I will send the e-mail I drafted up</p>



<a name="198349786"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349786" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349786">(May 21 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>or rather</p>



<a name="198349799"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349799" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349799">(May 21 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will post it on the github issues, and whatever internal threads there are</p>



<a name="198349924"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198349924" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198349924">(May 21 2020 at 17:21)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198349769">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Well I was just about to ask, we can continue discussing this and maybe what a team agnostic proposal looks like or we could move to another topic?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm ok either way, but at this point maybe it makes sense to stay on the topic. :) I have a few thoughts and doubts I could air and hear what people think.</p>



<a name="198350002"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350002" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350002">(May 21 2020 at 17:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Please, go ahead. <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="198350093"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350093" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350093">(May 21 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>One concern I have is that so many things are kind of cross-cutting</p>



<a name="198350117"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350117" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350117">(May 21 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>(domain WG the survey email to the leads at least is sent, I just sent it before this meeting)</p>



<a name="198350125"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350125" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350125">(May 21 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>So having per-team repos maybe "silos" the conversation in ways that could prevent us from getting feedback we want</p>



<a name="198350147"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350147" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350147">(May 21 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess even if they're not cross-cutting</p>



<a name="198350211"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350211" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350211">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think I'm mainly thinking that sometimes the decision to pursue something is one worth talking about</p>



<a name="198350237"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350237" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350237">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I worry a bit about how to bring that conversation about</p>



<a name="198350247"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350247" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350247">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>one thought I've had in the past is that chartering a project group ought to be an RFC</p>



<a name="198350254"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350254" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350254">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>That might be ok for the initial process - it ensures that, while it is being formed, the feedback is coming from people with context</p>



<a name="198350259"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350259" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350259">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I think that this may be appropriate, though it's not always worked out as well as I'd like</p>



<a name="198350283"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350283" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350283">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, I'm also wondering if I worry too much :)</p>



<a name="198350286"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350286" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350286">(May 21 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>The conversation about a specific proposal, prior to the "liaison says yes" threshold?</p>



<a name="198350319"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350319" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350319">(May 21 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess maybe this is it. I feel like I want two contradictory things.</p>



<a name="198350380"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350380" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350380">(May 21 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like, as a team, we should encourage each other to pursue things that seem important to us -- so e.g. having <em>someone</em> feel it's important should be enough to at least kind of start exploration</p>



<a name="198350391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350391">(May 21 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>But I also think we need to have group discussions</p>



<a name="198350469"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350469" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350469">(May 21 2020 at 17:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe part of the responsibility of the liaison could be to help determine which other teams might want to have input on a topic and invite them to participate or at least give feedback?</p>



<a name="198350496"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350496" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350496">(May 21 2020 at 17:26)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I'm assuming this in a situation where not all of the members are in agreement around the topic?</p>



<a name="198350518"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350518" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350518">(May 21 2020 at 17:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>one way to square that circle is to say something like, first, we will discuss in meetings etc before becoming liaison, so we'll uncover some objections, and perhaps to say that one route is to say "that seems like a big decision, you should create a zulip stream but the first task is to draw up a charter"</p>



<a name="198350592"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350592" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350592">(May 21 2020 at 17:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., if you think of staging, there is kind of</p>
<ul>
<li>Proposal</li>
<li>Writing charter</li>
<li>Writing/implementing RFC</li>
</ul>
<p>and sometimes the proposal/charter are kind of done in one step, and sometimes they're not</p>



<a name="198350708"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350708" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350708">(May 21 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> I think I agree with that, though I think it'd be good if we made it kind of part of the "charter" or something to list stakeholders who ought to be consulted?</p>



<a name="198350748"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350748" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350748">(May 21 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>( anyway, I also sort of suspect this is something we can iterate on, which is why I'm trying not to let it stop me, because I think we have to do <em>something</em> and we'll see how it goes )</p>



<a name="198350803"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350803" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350803">(May 21 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>in some way, these doubts I guess have more to do with the "project group" process than the "proposal" part of it :)</p>



<a name="198350865"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350865" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350865">(May 21 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>What are your strongest doubts about the project group part of the process, in this context?</p>



<a name="198350882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350882">(May 21 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>So:</p>
<ul>
<li>liaisons can volunteer, but can't actually be "assigned" until there's been a brief opportunity for all members of the relevant team to object in some way</li>
<li>objections can either be of the form "we shouldn't let this move forward at all" or "this effort needs an actual project group around it"</li>
</ul>



<a name="198350963"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198350963" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198350963">(May 21 2020 at 17:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>(deleted)</p>



<a name="198351153"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351153" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351153">(May 21 2020 at 17:31)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120076">BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198350882">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>can't actually be "assigned" until </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think I'd probably say it like you said more initially -- one of the jobs of a liaison is to make sure that lang-team members are on board</p>



<a name="198351174"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351174" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351174">(May 21 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>the easiest way to do that being bring it up in a meeting</p>



<a name="198351229"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351229" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351229">(May 21 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>not necessarily 100% on board to start of course</p>



<a name="198351249"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351249" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351249">(May 21 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>but there should be some point where we decide whether or not to do it</p>



<a name="198351281"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351281" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351281">(May 21 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198350592">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>i.e., if you think of staging, there is kind of</p>
<ul>
<li>Proposal</li>
<li>Writing charter</li>
<li>Writing/implementing RFC</li>
</ul>
<p>and sometimes the proposal/charter are kind of done in one step, and sometimes they're not</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That's true, though I'm unsure how to address that, I believe proposals try to be exhaustive because they want to be seriously considered, and to give the impression that the person proposing really did research.</p>



<a name="198351287"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351287" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351287">(May 21 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>and after that point, I think lang team members probably have to commit to supporting the idea :)</p>



<a name="198351358"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351358" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351358">(May 21 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span> maybe good to work through some examples</p>



<a name="198351369"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351369" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351369">(May 21 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>Oh, I meant the liaison would help determine whether/how _other_ teams need to weigh in.</p>



<a name="198351380"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351380" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351380">(May 21 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>I know, I extended it :)</p>



<a name="198351480"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351480" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351480">(May 21 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., step 1 is intra team, but step 2 is more about "who else out there" -- I don't think it's really about other <em>teams</em> necessarily, though that may be true, but just "key folks who should be consulted". e.g., for ffi-unwind that included <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="237472">@acfoltzer</span></p>



<a name="198351500"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351500" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351500">(May 21 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm thinking of some interesting examples:</p>
<ul>
<li>safe-transmute comes to mind</li>
</ul>



<a name="198351544"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351544" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351544">(May 21 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>where we kind of have a strong motivation, and some pre-discussion, but the solution itself is evolving a lot</p>



<a name="198351549"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351549" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351549">(May 21 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well I have an example of an idea where I am unsure how to to go about it.</p>



<a name="198351574"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351574" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351574">(May 21 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/bring-enum-variants-in-scope-for-patterns/12104/27?u=xampprocky">https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/bring-enum-variants-in-scope-for-patterns/12104/27?u=xampprocky</a></p>



<a name="198351589"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351589" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351589">(May 21 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ah, okay. So it's:</p>
<ul>
<li>team liaison volunteers</li>
<li>liaison solicits initial (minimal) feedback from the "original" team</li>
<li>if the team doesn't outright veto the idea, liaison solicits feedback from other relevant teams, when appropriate</li>
</ul>



<a name="198351731"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351731" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351731">(May 21 2020 at 17:36)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198351574">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/bring-enum-variants-in-scope-for-patterns/12104/27?u=xampprocky">https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/bring-enum-variants-in-scope-for-patterns/12104/27?u=xampprocky</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>your message (And Josh's reply) feels like precisely what the "proposals process" is meant to encourage and formalize</p>



<a name="198351790"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351790" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351790">(May 21 2020 at 17:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also think that this is an example of something where the "proposal" could already include a lot of the solution, though it might be nice to list out alternatives and your preferred one</p>



<a name="198351928"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198351928" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198351928">(May 21 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, to talk about the proposal, one of the reasons I haven't written anything yet, is because I don't know how much work I need to put into the initial proposal.</p>



<a name="198352005"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352005" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352005">(May 21 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>Like how exhaustive would one need to be about anonymous enums?</p>



<a name="198352095"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352095" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352095">(May 21 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>this would be good to clarify somehow</p>



<a name="198352096"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352096" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352096">(May 21 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>my hope is that the bar for proposals is fairly low</p>



<a name="198352127"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352127" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352127">(May 21 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>like, kind of the "elevator pitch"</p>



<a name="198352133"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352133" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352133">(May 21 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>enough to communicate the essentials of the idea</p>



<a name="198352194"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352194" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352194">(May 21 2020 at 17:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I guess it will depend on the proposal too?</p>



<a name="198352245"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352245" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352245">(May 21 2020 at 17:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm trying to think, but I imagine that if you're offering up a proposal that is kind of a "ergonomic addition" (like <code>_::</code>) it would be enough to start with something simple. Maybe it wouldn't get accepted because "we don't hve the abndwidth to figure out if this can work, maybe talk to petrochenkov ..."</p>



<a name="198352342"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352342" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352342">(May 21 2020 at 17:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess actually that I think the thinsg that require more up-front work -- in a way -- require less? I'm thinking of things like async/await or unsafe-code-guidelines or what have you, where it feels like the details are too big to even really fit in a single RFC, and it's more about making the case for why this <em>part</em> of work is important</p>



<a name="198352427"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352427" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352427">(May 21 2020 at 17:42)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198352127">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>like, kind of the "elevator pitch"</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Even for larger proposals I think it'd be good to say, you need to have an elevator pitch for it.</p>



<a name="198352451"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352451" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352451">(May 21 2020 at 17:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>Proposals should ideally be compelling.</p>



<a name="198352501"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352501" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352501">(May 21 2020 at 17:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think you have to be show the "rough shape" of a solution, enough to know it is solveable</p>



<a name="198352544"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352544" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352544">(May 21 2020 at 17:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, "Solve the turing problem" would be compelling but not feasible.</p>



<a name="198352555"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352555" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352555">(May 21 2020 at 17:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>like I think with async-await there's enough precedent that you can kind of hearken to that</p>



<a name="198352663"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352663" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352663">(May 21 2020 at 17:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm trying to think of some other proposals and how they'd fit</p>



<a name="198352700"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352700" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352700">(May 21 2020 at 17:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>another example: there have been a lot of proposals aiming to address this pattern</p>



<a name="198352735"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352735" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352735">(May 21 2020 at 17:45)</a>:</h4>
<div class="codehilite"><pre><span></span><code><span class="k">fn</span> <span class="nf">fo</span><span class="p">()</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="p">{</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="w">    </span><span class="kd">let</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">x</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">=</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">match</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">bar</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="p">{</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="w">        </span><span class="nb">Some</span><span class="p">(</span><span class="n">v</span><span class="p">)</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">=&gt;</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">v</span><span class="p">,</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="w">        </span><span class="nb">None</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">=&gt;</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">..</span><span class="p">.</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">return</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="w">    </span><span class="p">};</span><span class="w"></span>
<span class="p">}</span><span class="w"></span>
</code></pre></div>



<a name="198352771"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352771" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352771">(May 21 2020 at 17:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., via something like</p>
<div class="codehilite"><pre><span></span><code><span class="kd">let</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="nb">Some</span><span class="p">(</span><span class="n">x</span><span class="p">)</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="o">=</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">match</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="n">bar</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">else</span><span class="w"> </span><span class="k">return</span><span class="w"></span>
</code></pre></div>


<p>or...someting...</p>



<a name="198352777"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352777" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352777">(May 21 2020 at 17:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I figure the actual syntax :)</p>



<a name="198352806"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352806" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352806">(May 21 2020 at 17:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>but there are other ideas too of how one might address that</p>



<a name="198352881"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198352881" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198352881">(May 21 2020 at 17:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like starting out with "we want to make this pattern less annoying, and here is one thing" might be good, but I'd like to see some exploration before we settle, but that could take place in a project group? at least that seems ideal to me</p>



<a name="198353069"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353069" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353069">(May 21 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>but maybe it already took place on internals and can just be listed ..</p>



<a name="198353170"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353170" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353170">(May 21 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe it would good to say something like, "Your proposal should contain at least one potential solution, but the team may require alternative proposed solutions before accepting"</p>



<a name="198353239"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353239" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353239">(May 21 2020 at 17:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>Quick time check: We're at 10 minutes.</p>



<a name="198353443"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353443" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353443">(May 21 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't think we'd <em>require</em> alternative proposals --</p>



<a name="198353462"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353462" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353462">(May 21 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>but it's definitely happened that RFCs come in with one solution in mind and get adapted</p>



<a name="198353496"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353496" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353496">(May 21 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>and/or that there are competing ideas for how to solve something, and in those cases, it'd be nice to get a summary of the ideas</p>



<a name="198353528"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353528" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353528">(May 21 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I want to ask what do we want the output of this discussion around the proposals to be?</p>



<a name="198353554"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353554" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353554">(May 21 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think my ideal -- maybe unachievable :) -- is that we able to get people to give up a bit "ownership" of "my idea" vs "Nancy's idea" and more like "here are the ideas we as a group came up with"</p>



<a name="198353652"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353652" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353652">(May 21 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I would imagine we can accept a proposal with the intent of "first spend some time fleshing out the idea and thinking about possible alternatives"</p>



<a name="198353679"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353679" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353679">(May 21 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I feel like this is exactly what's happening with safe-transmute, for example)</p>



<a name="198353730"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353730" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353730">(May 21 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>100% that, I think removing ego and self is often one of the hardest things, but we should still work towards it.</p>



<a name="198353836"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353836" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353836">(May 21 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>We can at least require that any documents for public consumption (such as RFCs) produced by a project-group not use such terminology</p>



<a name="198353870"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353870" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353870">(May 21 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>...though probably in RFCs that's already not really a problem?</p>



<a name="198353932"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353932" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353932">(May 21 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120076">BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21/near/198353836">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>We can at least require that any documents for public consumption (such as RFCs) produced by a project-group not use such terminology</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Tangentially to that I wish there was a style/content guide for writing RFCs.</p>



<a name="198353944"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353944" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353944">(May 21 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I also think that the ffi-unwind WG was shooting for this, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span>)</p>



<a name="198353984"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198353984" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198353984">(May 21 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>though we did also sort of take sides, but we tried to work together to elaborate the range of possibilities at least</p>



<a name="198354003"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354003" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354003">(May 21 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>before doing so :P</p>



<a name="198354013"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354013" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354013">(May 21 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>which seems good</p>



<a name="198354088"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354088" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354088">(May 21 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>so..4 minutes... I guess we don't have a lot of <em>action items</em> out of this meeting</p>



<a name="198354109"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354109" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354109">(May 21 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>though it was helpful for working through ideas</p>



<a name="198354119"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354119" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354119">(May 21 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>do we have thoughts on next week's agenda etc?</p>



<a name="198354176"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354176" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354176">(May 21 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well hopefully we get some replies to <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="249394">@Val Grimm</span>'s email, and should be able to discuss that.</p>



<a name="198354208"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354208" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354208">(May 21 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll make notes from this</p>



<a name="198354215"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354215" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354215">(May 21 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Sounds like the action items are to</p>



<a name="198354230"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354230" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354230">(May 21 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Get the project defs into forge</p>



<a name="198354259"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354259" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354259">(May 21 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>and try to codify</p>



<a name="198354320"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354320" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354320">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>+1</p>



<a name="198354322"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354322" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354322">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>a process like this that works for multiple groups, e.g. lang, compiler, libs?</p>



<a name="198354337"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354337" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354337">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>(this as in what was discussed above)</p>



<a name="198354354"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354354" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354354">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>keyboard oops, deleted</p>



<a name="198354363"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354363" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354363">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm thinking it's best to start with lang team before trying to "generalize"</p>



<a name="198354383"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354383" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354383">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I do think that the "mirror shape" of MCP / Lang-team proposals is interesting</p>



<a name="198354390"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354390" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354390">(May 21 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>and maybe we should (e.g.) adopt the MCP terminology</p>



<a name="198354396"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354396" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354396">(May 21 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>lang-team "MCPs"</p>



<a name="198354414"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354414" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354414">(May 21 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>(please yes <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span> )</p>



<a name="198354434"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354434" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354434">(May 21 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also plan to try and adapt the compiler-team to using PRs instead of issues</p>



<a name="198354451"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354451" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354451">(May 21 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>so that they have fewer "shallow differences"</p>



<a name="198354486"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354486" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354486">(May 21 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>(plus I think it'd be nice  to be able to "merge" a proposal when it's accepted, etc)</p>



<a name="198354614"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354614" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354614">(May 21 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Okay everyone that concludes the meeting for today, thank you for coming and stay safe!</p>



<a name="198354952"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-05-21/near/198354952" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-05-21.html#198354952">(May 21 2020 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thank you for leading, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span>!</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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